http://www.am800cklw.com/
https://youtu.be/FDt3YXozsgY
http://windsorstar.com/storyline/ontario-nurses-launch-petition-in-wake-of-cuts-to-registered-nurses
https://soundcloud.com/am800-afternoon-news/thursday-january-28th-350pm-ona-discusses-nursing-layoffs-in-windsor
Nursing cuts at Windsor Regional will reduce patient care, say health experts
CBC News Posted: Jan 13, 2016 6:19 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 13, 2016 6:19 PM ET
As if the hunt for nursing jobs in Windsor wasn't daunting enough, the situation just got a little more grim, say university and college students getting ready to enter the health care sector.Students were shaken by Tuesday's announcement that Windsor Regional Hospital will eliminate 120 registered nursing positions in order to make up for a $20-million budget shortfall.
Knowing there are even fewer jobs in the city, where employment is already a challenge, delivers a deflating blow to the hopes of people like Sydney Prahl-Davis.
Prahl-Davis is in her fourth year of the nursing program at the University of Windsor.
"It's a little frustrating and disheartening," Prahl-Davis told CBC News. "I never really thought that not having a job opportunity right out of graduation would be as much of a concern as I'm finding that it is."
But the bad news for some students means good news for others training to be registered practical nurses.
While Windsor Regional cut 120 RN jobs, it plans to hire 80 new registered practical nurses or RPNs, making the transition to a mixed nursing model similar to those used in many other hospitals.
Students in the RPN program at St. Clair College will have more opportunities because of the RPN hires, explained Dr. Ken Blanchette, chair of the school of health.
"For the students, I think the opportunity is going to be exciting for some entry level [practical nursing] jobs," he said.
Mixed-use model
Moving to a mixed-nursing model can work well at Windsor Regional, just as it has at other hospitals, according to Crystal Avolio, coordinator of first year practical nursing at St. Clair College."I think there's been a mixed model used at other facilities in our city, so I think they will similarly be following that type of lead," she said. "I think it will be successful, it is in other organizations."
Though she supports mixed models, Avolio is disturbed by the lost jobs. So is Dr. Debbie Kane, professor with faculty of nursing at the University of Windsor, who said budget cuts never translate into better care for patients.
"If the hospital had said we're going to a mix of staffing because it will provide better quality of care, and we're going to roll it out over the next year, then I'm OK with that," she said. "But when you say you're cutting RN positions in order to save money, that concerns me."
January 14, 2016 | Vote 0 0
Windsor Regional Hospital sheds 166 jobs amid $20M shortfall
CBC News
Posted: Jan 12, 2016 12:52 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 12, 2016 6:47 PM ET
Windsor Regional Hospital announced Tuesday it will cut 166 jobs over the next year as it grapples with a $20-million funding shortfall.
The majority of the cuts will be registered nurses, David Musyj, the hospital's president and CEO said Tuesday. To help lessen the blow of the cuts, the hospital plans to hire about 80 registered practical nurses, who are cheaper to employ.
Criticizing the job cuts, the Ontario Nurses Association quickly turned its attention to the provincial government, blaming politicians for creating unnecessary budget pressures in hospitals.
"The government is forcing the hospital's hands to make these changes and these changes are not good for Ontarians," said Susan Summerdyke, the ONA bargaining unit president at Windsor Regional Hospital. "They're not going to be good in the future and they're not going to be good now."
Musyj provided a breakdown of the staffing changes, saying 120 registered nurse positions will be eliminated. The other 46 positions will be a mix of staff including administrative positions.
Windsor Regional's Met campus switched to an all-RN model 12 years ago, saying it was the best for patient care. The Ouellete campus stuck with a mix of about 83 per cent RNs with the rest being RPNs.
Many of the positions being cut will come through attrition, Musyj said.
Musyj said the hospital currently employs about 1,550 registered nurses and 180 registered practical nurses across its two campuses.
Windsor Regional Hospital nursing change will save money, won't boost care, expert says
CBC News Posted: Jan 13, 2016 8:37 AM ET Last Updated: Jan 13, 2016 8:37 AM ET
A nursing expert says a move to trim the number of registered nurses at Windsor Regional Hospital may help cut costs, but it won't boost quality of care for patients.The hospital announced Tuesday it is grappling with a $20-million shortfall in its budget, which has prompted it to make plans to reduce staffing numbers.
About 120 registered nurse positions will be eliminated in these cuts, though the hospital will also be hiring about 80 registered practical nurses.
Deborah Kane, an associate professor of nursing at the University of Windsor, said registered nurses — or RNs — have a higher level of education that allows them to keep a close watch on patients and pick up on subtle signs of trouble.
"It is that four years of education that prepares them to do the critical thinking, the assessments, the follow-through of care," Kane told CBC Radio's Windsor Morning in a telephone interview.
Kane said registered practical nurses — also known as RPNs — have a two-year degree.
"They are truly important and needed in the mix of care of our health-care profession and the care that we give to patients, but to suggest that there will be no change in care because it's still a nurse totally ignores the fact that there is a difference between an RN and an RPN," she said.
Kane said the rationale the hospital has put forward for making changes to its mix of RNs and RPNs is based on cost constraints.
"When you say that you are cutting RNs in order to save money, that's not saying we're cutting RNs because we know that RPNs can give just as good care," she said.
In terms of the changes coming to the Windsor hospital, Kane said administrators are simply dealing with funding issues that are beyond their control.
"This is about how the money is allocated. I think Windsor Regional is doing the best they can with the money that they're given," she said.
Hospital CEO David Musyj said Tuesday the hospital is simply " standardizing operations" of the Windsor Regional Hospital Met Campus and Oullette Campus.
"Whether we move to a new hospital facility or not, we've got to standardize between the two campuses. So we're either going all RN or we're going to this mixed model," he said. "So we examined it and went to the mixed model. By doing so the quality outcomes are not diminished [and] No. 2, we're able to save patient services by doing so."
Musyj claimed Tuesday that the Met Campus was unique in not having any RPNs.
"The number of all-RN hospitals has diminished drastically in Ontario, to the point we're the only one left," he claimed. "So, what we're looking at is how can we compare ourselves to our peers?
"We looked at every single peer of similar size and nature and examined their staffing ratio and staffing mix, floor by floor, shift by shift, and we were the outlier."
Ontario Nurses' Association warns hospital layoffs will hurt patients
Waterloo Region Record
By Keith Leslie
TORONTO — The Ontario Nurses' Association is sounding the alarm about layoffs of registered nurses by cash-strapped hospitals, and warns patients will pay the price.
The union, which represents 60,000 registered nurses, says there were 770 RN positions cut across Ontario last year, and hospitals in Windsor and Kitchener have already announced more RN layoffs this month.
The hospitals decided to "risk the health outcomes of patients by cutting RNs to balance the budget," said ONA president Linda Haslam-Stroud.
Windsor Regional Hospital cut about 120 RN positions this week, but said it plans to hire 80 registered practical nurses, who do not need a university degree. The Grand River Hospital in Kitchener cut 38 RN jobs this week.
Part of the problem is the government's funding formula favours hospitals in high growth areas like Toronto, Markham, Richmond Hill and Barrie, which means less money for Windsor-Essex, said WRH president and CEO David Musyj.
"Generally this is where we have been penalized as a hospital and region," Musyj said in a note to staff announcing the layoffs.
"Just for this fiscal year, we are being told we will receive approximately $10 million dollars less in funding due to the formula."
Hospitals are not allowed to run deficits, and Musyj said Windsor Regional "will return to balanced or surplus budgets" with the staff changes.
ONA said "hardly a day goes by" where it doesn't get a call from nurses at a hospital who say they've been told to expect layoffs.
A four-year funding freeze means hospitals have less money for patient care because of inflationary pressures on wages and other costs such as heating and electricity, so they're laying off nurses, said ONA vice-president Vicki McKenna McKenna.
"I absolutely believe that this is all being driven by budget cuts," she said.
Health Minister Eric Hoskins issued a statement saying hospitals are responsible for their own staffing decisions.
"Our expectation remains that they work closely with the LHINs to determine how best to manage their budget concerns in a way that sustains quality health services for the future and does not impact patient care," he said.
A spokesman for Hoskins said the government consulted 500 "health system leaders, clinicians and experts" on the design and implementation of the funding formula.
"Hospitals, long-term care and community care providers are funded based on how many patients they look after, the services they deliver, and the specific needs of the population they serve," said press secretary Shae Greenfield.
Ontario hospitals are in crisis because of the funding freeze, and nurses are being targeted while patients get decreased levels of care, said Progressive Conservative health critic Jeff Yurek.
"When you do frontline heath care cuts, the patient does suffer, care does diminish, because nursing is the backbone of the health care system, particularly in hospitals," he said.
The New Democrats said freezing hospital budgets led to nursing cuts that directly impact patients.
"I would tell the government: stop the cuts to frontline care," said NDP health critic France Gelinas. "I don't want to be alarmist, but this will put patients at risk."
Gelinas is concerned that the push to home- and community-based care means diverting scarce health care dollars to for-profit companies contracted to provide those services, and said patients can wait up to 200 days for treatment.
"The money that goes to profit does not go to care, but it comes out of the same pie," she said.
Windsor Regional Hospital cuts jobs due to funding shortfall
CTV Windsor, Tuesday, January 12, 2016 1:29PM EST
A shakeup at Windsor Regional Hospital will impact 166 positions.CEO David Musyj says they plan to replace 80 Registered Nurses with 80 Registered Practical Nurses.
A shakeup at Windsor Regional Hospital will impact 166 positions.CEO David Musyj says they plan to replace 80 Registered Nurses with 80 Registered Practical Nurses.
The net impact then is 86 job reductions overall.
Musyj says Windsor is the last hospital in Ontario with an all RN model of care. It currently employs 1,550 RNs and 180 RPNs.
The current funding formula is penalizing cities that have small population growth, says Musyj.
Musyj says the transition will take place over a nine to 12 month time frame.
Jan 14, 2016 | Vote 0 0
Nurses say layoffs will hurt Ontario patients
TORONTO — The Ontario Nurses' Association is sounding the alarm about layoffs of Registered Nurses by cash-strapped hospitals, and warns patients will pay the price.
The union, which represents 60,000 registered nurses, says there were 770 RN positions cut across Ontario last year, and hospitals in Windsor and Kitchener have already announced more RN layoffs this month.
The hospitals decided to "risk the health outcomes of patients by cutting RNs to balance the budget," said ONA president Linda Haslam-Stroud.
Windsor Regional Hospital cut about 120 RN positions this week, but said it plans to hire 80 registered practical nurses, who do not need a university degree. The Grand River Hospital in Kitchener cut 38 RN jobs this week.
Part of the problem is the government's funding formula favours hospitals in high growth areas like Toronto, Markham, Richmond Hill and Barrie, which means less money for Windsor-Essex, said WRH president and CEO David Musyj.
"Generally this is where we have been penalized as a hospital and region," Musyj said in a note to staff announcing the layoffs.
"Just for this fiscal year, we are being told we will receive approximately $10 million dollars less in funding due to the formula."
Hospitals are not allowed to run deficits, and Musyj said Windsor Regional "will return to balanced or surplus budgets" with the staff changes.
ONA said "hardly a day goes by" where it doesn't get a call from nurses at a hospital who say they've been told to expect layoffs.
A four-year funding freeze means hospitals have less money for patient care because of inflationary pressures on wages and other costs such as heating and electricity, so they're laying off nurses, said ONA vice-president Vicki McKenna McKenna.
"I absolutely believe that this is all being driven by budget cuts," she said.
Health Minister Eric Hoskins issued a statement saying hospitals are responsible for their own staffing decisions.
"Our expectation remains that they work closely with the LHINs to determine how best to manage their budget concerns in a way that sustains quality health services for the future and does not impact patient care," he said.
A spokesman for Hoskins said the government consulted 500 "health system leaders, clinicians and experts" on the design and implementation of the funding formula.
"Hospitals, long-term care and community care providers are funded based on how many patients they look after, the services they deliver, and the specific needs of the population they serve," said press secretary Shae Greenfield.
Ontario hospitals are in crisis because of the funding freeze, and nurses are being targeted while patients get decreased levels of care, said Progressive Conservative health critic Jeff Yurek.
"When you do frontline heath care cuts, the patient does suffer, care does diminish, because nursing is the backbone of the health care system, particularly in hospitals," he said.
The New Democrats said freezing hospital budgets led to nursing cuts that directly impact patients.
"I would tell the government: stop the cuts to frontline care," said NDP health critic France Gelinas. "I don't want to be alarmist, but this will put patients at risk."
Gelinas is concerned that the push to home- and community-based care means diverting scarce health care dollars to for-profit companies contracted to provide those services, and said patients can wait up to 200 days for treatment.
"The money that goes to profit does not go to care, but it comes out of the same pie," she said.
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By Keith Leslie, The Canadian Press
Ontario Nurses Associations warns hospital layoffs will hurt patients
Vancouver Sun
By Keith Leslie, The Canadian Press January 14, 2016
TORONTO - The Ontario Nurses' Association is sounding the alarm about layoffs of Registered Nurses by cash-strapped hospitals, and warns patients will pay the price.
The union, which represents 60,000 registered nurses, says there were 770 RN positions cut across Ontario last year, and hospitals in Windsor and Kitchener have already announced more RN layoffs this month.
The hospitals decided to "risk the health outcomes of patients by cutting RNs to balance the budget," said ONA president Linda Haslam-Stroud.
Windsor Regional Hospital cut about 120 RN positions this week, but said it plans to hire 80 registered practical nurses, who do not need a university degree. The Grand River Hospital in Kitchener cut 38 RN jobs this week.
Part of the problem is the government's funding formula favours hospitals in high growth areas like Toronto, Markham, Richmond Hill and Barrie, which means less money for Windsor-Essex, said WRH president and CEO David Musyj.
"Generally this is where we have been penalized as a hospital and region," Musyj said in a note to staff announcing the layoffs.
"Just for this fiscal year, we are being told we will receive approximately $10 million dollars less in funding due to the formula."
Hospitals are not allowed to run deficits, and Musyj said Windsor Regional "will return to balanced or surplus budgets" with the staff changes.
ONA said "hardly a day goes by" where it doesn't get a call from nurses at a hospital who say they've been told to expect layoffs.
A four-year funding freeze means hospitals have less money for patient care because of inflationary pressures on wages and other costs such as heating and electricity, so they're laying off nurses, said ONA vice-president Vicki McKenna McKenna.
"I absolutely believe that this is all being driven by budget cuts," she said.
Health Minister Eric Hoskins issued a statement saying hospitals are responsible for their own staffing decisions.
"Our expectation remains that they work closely with the LHINs to determine how best to manage their budget concerns in a way that sustains quality health services for the future and does not impact patient care," he said.
A spokesman for Hoskins said the government consulted 500 "health system leaders, clinicians and experts" on the design and implementation of the funding formula.
"Hospitals, long-term care and community care providers are funded based on how many patients they look after, the services they deliver, and the specific needs of the population they serve," said press secretary Shae Greenfield.
Ontario hospitals are in crisis because of the funding freeze, and nurses are being targeted while patients get decreased levels of care, said Progressive Conservative health critic Jeff Yurek.
"When you do frontline heath care cuts, the patient does suffer, care does diminish, because nursing is the backbone of the health care system, particularly in hospitals," he said.
The New Democrats said freezing hospital budgets led to nursing cuts that directly impact patients.
"I would tell the government: stop the cuts to frontline care," said NDP health critic France Gelinas. "I don't want to be alarmist, but this will put patients at risk."
Gelinas is concerned that the push to home- and community-based care means diverting scarce health care dollars to for-profit companies contracted to provide those services, and said patients can wait up to 200 days for treatment.
"The money that goes to profit does not go to care, but it comes out of the same pie," she said.
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/ontario+nurses+associations+warns+hospital+layoffs+will+hurt/11651962/story.html#ixzz3yTVG5c5H
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/ontario+nurses+associations+warns+hospital+layoffs+will+hurt/11651962/story.html#ixzz3yTVG5c5H
UPDATE: Job Cuts Expected At Windsor Regional
By Adelle Loiselle on January 12, 2016 2:17pm AM 800
Faced with a $20-million shortfall, Windsor Regional Hospital is cutting more than 160 full-time positions across its two campuses — and its CEO blames the provincial funding formula.
David Musyj hopes to eliminate most if not all of those jobs through early retirement and attrition. The cuts include 120 nursing positions and 40 other full-time positions in other departments. Eighty registered practical nurses, with a starting wage of $27.50/hr will replace 80 registered nurses who make between $31.02/hr and $44.85/hr.
While the Ouellette Campus employs a mix of both, the Met Campus has only RNs. It made the decision in 2002 to hire only registered nurses citing a belief it would improve patient outcomes. Since then, Musyj says research has not supported the theory. He says patient care will not suffer.
“That was part of the work we did, this time, is re-examine it, as compare to 99.9% of the other hospitals that have mixed staff, and the quality outcomes were no different,” says Musyj.
Susan Sommerdyk with the Ontario Nurses Association sees it differently.
“Studies and studies have shown the higher trained the healthcare provider at the bedside, the better outcomes so [patients] are not going to have the same quality of care,” says Sommerdyk, also working as the bargaining unit president for ONA at Windsor Regional Hospital.
The cutbacks have been hard to swallow for local nurses.
“It was a very difficult day and there’s more to come,” says Sommerdyk, adding moral has taken after hearing of the impending cuts. “Concern, worry, upset; what you would expect when people’s jobs are on the line and they don’t know what tomorrow is going to bring.”
Sommerdyk says it will be the end of the week before staff will know exactly where cuts will be made.
Administration at the hospital knew back in May it was facing a deficit in 2015, and at the time, Musyj blamed a lack of provincial funding to care for 100 alternate level care patients. Now the hospital faces an additional $10-million funding shortfall. This time, Musyj blames the health-based allocation or HBAM, which makes up 40% of all provincial funding. HBAM funding has been frozen at $19-billion province-wide and is calculated using factors including projected population growth. Since that’s down in Windsor-Essex, Musyj says Windsor Regional Hospital is being penalized.
“Toronto, technically, is getting more money for the same patient who walks into their facility because of their population growth,” says Musyj.
Executive staff at the hospital will also take a 4% pay cut to help fill the funding gap.
On Friday, the hospital received written confirmation of an agreement with the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care to provide a $7-million one-time installment of funding for the current fiscal year, $5-million for the next, and cash advances which will have to be paid back by the end of the fiscal year. Without that cash infusion, Musyj says the job cuts would have taken effect last fall, instead of giving staff the option of considering early retirement over a period of 9 to 12 months.
While some may suggest the funding shortfall and job cuts make efforts to build a new acute care hospital unwise, Musyj counters saying more than anything, the circumstances prove Windsor-Essex needs the new facility more than ever. He says the only hospitals that have been exempted from the HBAM funding freeze are some priority programs like pacemakers, very small hospitals, and newly constructed facilities.
Musyj expects the HBAM funding freeze to end once the province balances its finances in 2017.
Staffing cuts coming at Windsor Regional Hospital
AM800
January 12, 2016 03:04 from Teresinha Medeiros
Staffing cuts are coming to Windsor Regional Hospital.
CEO David Musyj announced 166 positions are affected while it is adding 80 Registered Practical Nurses and eliminating 80 Registered Nurses.
Registered Practical Nurses are paid less than Registered Nurses.
Other cuts are coming to union and non-union staff.
Registered Practical Nurses are paid less than Registered Nurses.
Other cuts are coming to union and non-union staff.
It is the result of a funding shortfall of about $20-million over last year and this year's operational budget.
Musyj says provincial funding for hospitals has been frozen for 5 years at $19 billion.
But under the Health Based Allocation Model, funding depends on factors such as age and population growth projections.
But under the Health Based Allocation Model, funding depends on factors such as age and population growth projections.
Musyj says as some areas of the province see a growth in population, the funding is shifting to those high growth areas at the expense of others like Windsor-Essex.
"We have to do this. Do we want to do this? I hate doing this," says Musyj.
Windsor Regional Hospital is one of the last hospitals to have all RNs while the Ouellette Campus is a mix of RNs and RPNs
"The more appropriate model is to have all nursing model made up of RNs and RPNs. At the end of the day, we will have a majority of RNs as compared to RPNs but for the sake of the system, they are all nurses."
The transitions will take place over the next 9 to 12 months and Musyj hopes most of the cuts, will be offset by attrition. He expects the employment picture at the hospital will be neutral in the end.
The executive committee has also taken an individual voluntary 4 per cent pay reduction to help offset the funding challenges.
Shock over staff cuts at Windsor Regional Hospital
January 13, 2016 06:19 from Rusty Thomson
There is surprise at the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario over staffing changes at Windsor Regional Hospital.
As AM 800 News reported yesterday, staffing cuts at the hospital will affect 166 positions.
86 full-time jobs are being eliminated and 80 registered nursing positions are being replaced with 80 registered practical nurses, who make less money.
The hospital blames a lack of provincial funding but the Association's CEO, Doris Grinspun believes patient safety will be at risk.
Grinspun says "it's the wrong decision for patient outcomes. Let's focus on thinking about the people in Windsor and the region that need good patient care, good outcomes and let's do the right thing for them, please."
Hospital CEO David Musyj says the cuts are the result of a $20 million shortfall in provincial funding which has been frozen for the past five years.
The transition from RN's to RPN's is expected to take place over the next 9 to 12 months.
Facing $20M shortfall, Windsor Regional Hospital announces staff shakeup
Published on: January 12, 2016 | Last Updated: January 12, 2016 6:59 PM EST
Windsor Regional Hospital is eliminating 166 staff but hiring 80 registered practical nurses in a staffing shakeup it hopes can happen without layoffs.
The plan, devised to cope with a $20-million budget shortfall, was announced to staff on Tuesday. While 86 full-time-equivalent jobs are being eliminated throughout the hospital’s two campuses, the hospital is also planning to eliminate 80 registered nursing jobs and replace them with 80 lower-paid registered practical nurses. In total, 120 nursing jobs are being eliminated from an RN workforce of 1,550.
High-seniority RNs make $44 an hour while RPNs make $27.50 at the hospital, which has two campuses with different nursing mixes. Its Met campus has been all-RN since replacing its RPNs with RNs in 2002, citing studies that indicated fewer patient deaths at all-RN hospitals. Its Ouellette campus, which became part of Windsor Regional two years ago during a hospital realignment with Hotel-Dieu Grace Hospital, has 180 RPNs plus hundreds of RNs.
The switchover — 80 RPNs for 80 RNs — will happen at Met to make the mix similar to Ouellette.
Chief nursing officer Karen McCullough said the hospital examined patient outcomes from the Met site, the Ouellette site and other similar hospitals in the province and found “no significant difference” in patient outcomes at the all-RN Met site. But RNs say there is plenty of research showing that all-RN hospitals are better for patients.
“In my opinion, you’re putting patients more at risk,” Sue Sommerdyk, president of the Ontario Nurses Association’s Windsor Regional bargaining unit, said of the plan to replace some RNs with RPNs.
ONA president Linda Haslam-Stroud said the RN eliminations equate to a quarter million hours of RN care annually at Windsor Regional.
“This is a huge, drastic cut, this is one of the biggest we’ve seen,” she said, asserting that reducing RN staffing results in poorer patient care, from higher infection rates to increased misses and near misses on the hospital floors.
“As you cut the RN staff, the patient death and disease rates go up,” she said. “And Windsor is gutting the RN positions. To be clear, I don’t buy that they had to do this.”
RNs must have a bachelor of science in nursing degree, while RPNs go to college for four semesters to get a practical nursing diploma. RNs have a more comprehensive education and “can care for patients with more complex needs in unpredictable situations,” according to the Registered Nurses’ Association of Ontario.
Musyj acknowledged that switching RNs for RPNs contradicts the earlier belief that all-RN hospitals have better outcomes.
“But now the funding formula doesn’t allow us to do it, so we have to make the change,” he said.
Windsor Regional is being squeezed financially because overall hospital funding in the province has been frozen at $19 billion for five years, but that money is divided up according to a new funding formula that gives more money to hospitals in areas of higher population growth. That means hospitals in areas like Windsor where growth is slow, the funding goes down — a $10-million reduction last year and another $10-million reduction this year. That represents a four per cent cut to the hospital’s $500-million budget.
Musyj, who made $447,703 in 2014, said executives at the hospital — he and his vice-presidents — started taking a four per cent pay cut at the start of this month.
He said the government’s transitional funding — about $10 million plus about $20 million in cash flow that has to be paid back — spreads out the time needed to enact the staff cuts. With 4,000 employees, the hospital has a natural attrition rate of five per cent a year, or 200 people. That would mean there will hopefully be enough staff retiring to make layoffs unnecessary.
“It’s not 100 per cent guaranteed that will happen, it’s really in large part how many people take retirement packages.”
